Talked to a pastor today.

So, I talked to this pastor at work today. In my experience, this can either go horribly awry or turn out undeniably awesome, and this one was awesome. Theological discussions have usually tended to go my way in the past, though I must say they can be pretty easy on an atheist. I mean, no atheist really has to justify much. Just bring up a few old objections that have stood the test of time, whether it be a moral argument, or the contrariety of religious claims, the logical inconsistencies, or something of your own personal favorite, a sort of 'pet argument' that comes in a variety of flavors. You really can't lose if you don't overreach, because the only one making a special claim or something needing any justification is the theist.

I've found a good style for these sorts of things. Just be careful, but be direct, polite, calm, and friendly. Lay out the case with appropriate solemnity, throw in a couple of jokes, and agree when possible.

When laying out my case for this pastor, I hit pretty hard with the contrariety of religions argument. "They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong, and it is more likely that they are all wrong than even one of them being correct." However I didn't just assert this, I explained the points of the argument and how any supernatural claim that falls short of being properly evidenced is cancelled by other exclusive claims of a similar nature. For instance, the claim of Christ's resurrection vs. Mohammed ascending bodily into heaven. Each are part of contrary religions, with Christianity assigning Christ as a messiah, part of a mysterious trinity, and a savior for humanity and Islam positing Mohammed as the last and most correct prophet of the one true god, Allah. Neither has enough evidence to support its adoption as a historic fact, and so becomes a claim of faith. Therefore, neither establishes the truth of either religion as more probable.

I've noticed that even when these people don't say, "I'll pray for you", they go around it and basically sneak it in there. This guy, who, as most of them are, was super nice and a very decent guy, tried to put it as, "I hope you keep searching, and find what you're looking for, and basically come around to my religion, you fuck."I pretty much shut that down. "Atheism isn't a journey back to theism. It's the destination." Some people actually try to get from "no god" to "yes god". And unless you go the other way, assuming he does exist, you cannot get to theism. Proof is not to be found.

Not every person just 'doubts'. Some actually, permanently, rationally deconvert. And they never go back. And good for them, I say. No atheist should re-convert unless they've got a stronger case for the other side. I've never heard of a justified, rational reconversion to theism. Antony Flew, one usually cited exception, is a deist, not a theist. He was convinced by a rather weak argument as well, that being the "argument from Ray Comfort". (Though for most people, Ray Comfort is a reason to reject all religion.)

I'm speaking of course here of the "banana argument". I'm sure a few of us are familiar with this unholy abomination against logic. Here it is in numbered points.

1. There exists in this universe a banana.
2. I have this banana in my hand.
3. This banana is the "atheist's nightmare".
4. Therefore God exists.

Alternately, "I Can Has Banana" will suffice.

No, really though. The 'argument from design' is as simplistic as all that. "I don't know how this got here. It looks really neato. GOD OF THE GAPS, TO ME!!!!"

Ignorance is denoted by caps lock in real life, too.

Honestly, I did enjoy this pastor guy, though. He was polite, he listened, he respected me. The talk really brightened up my day. If you meet a Christian tomorrow, give 'em a hug. Tell 'em some damnable atheist sent ya.